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so let's maybe start talking a little bit about and we'll get into batteries a little bit later but we'll go through the order of the consultation brief um in the consultation brief you guys mentioned um that your desire is to have mostly a DC baseball you want to elaborate a little bit on what made you decide on that and uh yeah tell me a little bit about what why you're leaning that way um mainly because AC is really power hungry and um it depletes the batteries pretty quick um we are space limited uh so we cannot have uh too vests of quantities of batteries um so that's mostly the line of thought and we and just many things are our philosophy of cruising um we don't need an electric coffee grinder we are happy to grind our coffee manually uh it's it's yeah we have that sort of approach to things um we might do laundry in a bucket we don't need a washing machine we we don't need too many conveniences from AC power so that is why we mostly want to have a reliable DC system so nonetheless we are thinking of including AC which is primarily for the laptop for example but I mean that takes Watts so it's not it's still not making it an AC boat in any means um in my point of view it's not we're not talking Watts or even multiple of those that's a bit the philosophy but where are some of the questions and confusions come in is from my understanding and this is where we'd love some clarification is like once you bring AC on board you have increased risk of electrolysis and stuff without galvanic isolators and yeah we'll talk about that absolutely yeah so yeah so you're right I mean the point is it's hard to avoid AC altogether on a boat yeah um it's hard it's not that's not doable um so you know at the very least most people will have uh or um AC circuits uh for either a battery charger right the ability to recharge the batteries when you're connected to shore power or for some of us that have an on-board generator which is very few but some of us um so for the one for those of us that don't have a generator at all not DC or AC then you know being able to connect to shore power and keep your batteries maintained um is pretty desirable and so and you highlighted that too so I think for sure we want to include a battery charger um and that's one reason to have AC and then the other one would be uh some some folks will install a sort of a hot water tank right um so if they wanted maybe when they're connected to shore power the ability to warm water so that's one thing that some people do pretty common uh many people when connected to shore power like to have the benefits of a sort of maybe of a five gallon gallon uh hot water tank totally that it that's heated from uh Shore power totally I hadn't even thought of that no because I I have it in my face yeah it's uh it's not a big ticket item uh I would say I don't even know a production all production boats have it it's you know sometimes the water where different places can be pretty cold on the hands like here in the Pacific Northwest even in the summer um you know the water can be pretty cool it's not or degrees you know so um and shower same thing so that's something to consider and then the other thing too that you had brought up in your consultation brief and I think that that's something that even if you don't think you need it I think it's a good idea to have it is to install AC circuits um or outlets in different parts of the boat at least pre-wire the boat for that and again there are places especially if you don't change uh you know sort of voltage source uh frequency right because as soon as we change we go to Europe and we go someplace where everything is at hertz and then you go to some place where it's hertz that's really where things complicate it's not the voltage differential that's a big issue um it's the frequency change so for the two of you and you did highlight that it probably makes sense to have um all the AC Outlets inside the boat to be to one standard let's say for example and we'll talk about a little bit later on when we talk about inverters uh probably volts you know uh amp receptacles and to have those located maybe in a few places throughout the boat right generally you would see that one in the galley you might see one in a cabin uh one side maybe a chart table uh for charging laptops and stuff like that and potentially another one in the galley and not Galley but in the head okay so and these are these Outlets would only work when plugged into Shore power or these are powered by an inverter it all depends but that that aside generally um you would be recommended to wire in some of these because it's pretty standard right um You don't have to but there are reasons for why you would want to do that and then you would run those circuits back to the panel and then and then you have the ultimate choice you know if you want to run those circuits only on Shore power or do you want to run some of them on Shore power and inverter right so you can do both um there are again because this is where your journey is a little bit different than many others the fact that you're going to be changing um destinations um where you know leaving North America where things are not necessarily going to be at hertz this is where it gets really challenging right um and generally and we'll talk about that a little bit later but where many voters decide to have a simplified system is to have a battery charger be the only device that is connected to their Shore power system so effectively you don't even buy an inverter charger anymore you buy an inverter only uh which always outputs hertz because inverter Chargers cannot unlike battery chargers and this is you'll see this is the wind a battery charger can have an input range of let's say to or whatever it is and also have a frequency variability so we'll take both European power or North American power and that's the beauty of having a single battery charger connected to your Shore power system and then what you would do is you effectively create an island where your inverter is the only device that powers all the AC outlets on your boat I think that's what we're considering well that's what I was comparing I I drew like six different scenarios that would be possible um but the two that I'm leaning towards the most is the one you just named and the other one though that I'm also tempted by the only reason that I like it less is because it adds less redundancy but it adds less components and therefore Simplicity and that would be instead of a battery charger which accepts both voltages and both frequencies is to install for example victron's multiplus which is an inverter charger and correct me there but if you know the unit from what I understood is um it can accept um also both frequencies and both voltages no no no you choose one or the other oh you choose one or the other I thought they have they have they have inverter Chargers that are . they have inverter Chargers that are . but you can't it does not and this could change right the world is there's nothing categorical unless you're probably the product manager uh but to my knowledge um that does not exist you you don't have an inverter charger that enables you to change the output frequency not the output but it allows both inputs that was my understanding no that's my understanding is is no okay it would be ideal uh absolutely and that's why people end up doing Chargers and inverters so you end up having um a charger on the AC side and everything basically is just about recharging the battery bank and you could be connected to shore power and there's pros and cons of this you could be connected to shore power let's say a amp Shore power and you've installed let's say a big charger a hundred at uh for example maybe amp charger at volts that's probably going to draw amps so you're actually drawing about amps right now from your amp Shore power and um now that's amps DC so your inverter is going to maybe output you know maybe it's going to be able to run maybe a seven maybe an eight amp uh AC load at . because you're never going to be able to run you see this is where it gets interesting you'll never be able to run anything directly offshore power so if you have a large AC load that you want to run uh that exceeds your amps of DC charging then what you end up doing is you end up sort of like a little bit draining your batteries right yeah so and that's okay because as long as over time that that excessive load is variable right so you really think about it and this is what's I think so attractive with this model is the majority of the time you're not going to be connected to shore power right um it's there's many reasons for that um Financial is one of them uh for many many of us uh destinations around the world are not inexpensive and it's one thing to travel for two weeks as we know and have a big budget because you go back to work and you're working for the rest of the year but once you're offshore and you're doing it as a lifestyle uh connecting every day is quite prohibitive even for them it's also another preference it's nice to recharge here and there because at anchor you don't always get the perfect sleep but it's also the preference to have the best setup to stay at anchor because I mean that is what we prefer yeah nice every now and then yeah and so think about it that way when you have an inverter based boating um so when you're not connected to shore power your boat is basically the way we want it right you have batteries if you're going to run any sort of AC appliances on your boat the only way of doing it and it's a choice is that you decide to turn on the inverter to power an AC appliance that you feel that you want to have run for whatever amount of time you feel you can afford to run it because your battery banks are essentially charged maybe you're underway and you know the alternator is running or maybe it's a sunny day and you're not really using a lot of power and you're like well why not use that extra AC power or battery power that we have to recharge maybe a laptop or run a power tool uh or a power tool charger for example right those would be things that uh you know some voters would have you know maybe a drill uh a sander you know maybe something like that right that could potentially run off your inverter that's the only thing we use it for at the moment uh yeah charge my drill and my laptop we have the smallest of victron inverters and that's what it's for yeah yeah yeah um so all right so we'll park that now the downside of this is that for example here in the Pacific Northwest if you had a if you were going to run an AC load continuously like think about a heater a little small ceramic heater and that AC load you know it's a small little uh heater and you can buy those at West Marine and you can buy them everywhere and maybe it draws you know uh apps at . uh volts well that would not be possible so all these borders right now that are having heating systems on their boat and maintaining heat on their boat and they're drawing you know maybe amps of AC current to maintain heat on their boat well that that sort of uh usage would not work on an inverter-based boat right so even if you were connected to shore power um you wouldn't be able to exceed the output exceed you wouldn't be able to exceed the draw on your batteries beyond what your battery charger could give you right so it moderates your consumption yeah now one thing to think about Maya and you brought that up originally and I think it's a good point you know in life it's really hard to build something for everything so what you want to do is you want to say to yourself okay what am I going to be doing for the next five ten years and I'm going to build an electrical system for that and when the boat comes back to North America let's say it does or it goes back to Europe or wherever its final sort of more like resting places for a longer period of time then you can make changes right it's not hard to make changes it's really not hard on the EC because everything comes to one place and you can just move it around it's not that difficult it's not a big deal uh it's not like the DC which is large cabling going everywhere so what I always tell voters is yeah maybe you know think about what you're going to be really doing with your boat most of the time for the foreseeable future and if that changes then we can deal with it later and it's not a big deal to change because it's really hard to beat all things at the same time it's like an all-season Tire is not as good as a really good summer Tire or a good winter tire right and it's the same thing with our electrical systems if you're trying to be everything it's it's a challenge yeah so any questions comments on um the thought of having a charger connected and now of course assuming that my understanding of the victron products uh is that an inverter charger cannot have dual input frequencies and one single output because I think the challenge and I've asked this question before is that some inverters I have what's called a pass-through function um and this is where the inverter and it's a good thing and a bad thing so all inverters do this or practically all the ones that I'm aware of um if they're inverter Chargers and even some inverters do that actually as well is they're going to allow you to have an AC input and an AC output and if the inverter is disabled um the AC goes in and goes up but it's also monitored on the AC input right there's actually if it's the wrong frequency or the wrong voltage it's actually going to throw an alarm because the inverter has to make a just a decision am I going to take an AC input and connect it to my AC output or am I going to take what comes from the batteries and take the inverter output and connect it to the AC output and that's a decision and there's a relay that decides oh and the inverter is on you know take power from the inverter output the inverters disabled and we have we're sensing a good AC on the AC input connected through to the AC output um and having ACN to AC out allows the effectively automatic not having to use rotary dials to go from if your boat is on Shore power or if your boat is on um inverter or if your boat is on generator right so it's a way for to simplify the use of an inverter um manufacturers that even have sort of involved not well maybe invented or provide this feature called the password feature um do you have questions or comments well that was kind of the last system that I had uh drawn up um where our system would have been using an inverter charger with the pass-through so then we could have also had AC went at the dock and we could power like a space heater because it's not inverter only but now I am questioning if we want to go that route or not um because yeah you said that they don't allow dual input and that is what I had believed earlier so yeah I I don't well you'll find out um but that's one of the limitations right yeah is because of the pass-through function um the inverter only out right only outputs one and then but it can be mixed match on the input and so having one at fifty one at is where I think the concern is okay um so a lot of Voters end up doing this way and this is would be a reason why when it comes to sizing a battery charger you're probably better off getting a larger battery charger because it's really effectively also the only way um that you can actually recharge your battery Bank to allow you to even when you're connected to shore power right because everything else would be always powered through the battery Bank either via an inverter or direct to your loans yeah do you understand yeah okay okay so um and that's why let's maybe talk a little bit about oh and you mentioned something uh maybe also I should bring that up I hide highlighting the consultation you had mentioned it uh in your previous vote you had an AC panel with the reverse polarity light uh can you explain to others why you think that's an important feature ooh I think you'd be better at this Videolytics Tools