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hey everyone welcome to this  collaboration and first in  our ask the expert session here on  boating tube in collaboration with  pacific yacht systems  i've been a great fan and viewer of  pacific yacht systems content on youtube  and for me it's a  bit of an honor and i say i'm a bit kind  of star struck to have the one and only  jeff cote   from pacific yacht systems here this  morning jeff how you doing  doing wonderful thanks for having me on  your show and i'm also honored that  somebody wants to talk to me about  voting to be honest i think  i think this whole youtube thing is   making  people feel a little bit maybe more  important than they are i'm just another  boater like the rest of us so thank you  for the occasion  that's cool i'm blushing if you can't  see it underneath i'm getting around  here  the beard is hiding most of the red area  i mean it is it is quite i mean you are  a  pacific your system is yourself a  prolific on on youtube again i've  watched a lot of your stuff your  seminars you've got the you know  literally daily content on ask pys now  and i'm amazed that clearly you're a  business and you know you sell this  stuff you sell the service but you give  out a lot of free information  to boaters about you know wiring cabling  batteries charging and  the seminars you put out i mean what was  the sort of thinking behind that   pacific your system to create that  content  well i think  as boarders there's a  huge sense of   collective  feeling when we're on  the water  um you know boating is not an individual  sport at all  we see that in the racing we see that  and everything there's a huge sense of  you know this is hard  we can do it  alone   and we need help and there's a you  know  there's a lot of division on land but  once you're on the water voters help  voters  and  you know maybe it could be a  political divide it could be a religious  divide it could be cultural it could be  socio-economic  whatever all the craziness that we have  on land that separates us which are you  know potentially bogus  on the water those are gone and   and you see that and so that sort of  sharing and helping  is part of a real big attraction of  people go on the water  it's almost like all these things you  know like i remember talking to boaters  on the water and you're like you would  never get a chance to meet these people  and likewise they would never get a  chance to meet you  and so that attraction for the water  finds us there's a certain commonality  there  and i know as a boater i was overwhelmed  when i started  voting um certainly if you're aware of  it  you know you're gonna know that it's a  lot harder than you were probably told  or thought  and  as a voter i think  for me i came so close um  you know there was so much hardship on  our boat when we bought it  on april fool's day um that  i felt like i'm not saying i almost gave  up but i know that a lot of people  wouldn't maybe have  they they might get frustrated if their  boat is not reliable  and  as a boater i think you know  to be able to fulfill one's dream and to  be on the water and and enjoy the beauty  of the world and the serenity of it and  slowing down and all the things that we  have a hard time doing on land we can do  that on the water and so  for me these youtube videos are about  helping  other voters information is  not what we really provide to our  clients  information is everywhere it's on the  internet  it's it's way more than that so i'm not  protective of the information  we're a service provider and so to me  sharing information  is not giving it away it's i have it  people want to listen  um and to be honest the the feedback  that you get from some of these voters  are  tear-jerking you know like you get  people that are sending us emails and  saying how  we changed their life you know we gave  them confidence to their family come on  the boat  how as a human being could that not be  fulfilling yes you'd have to be dead  inside  you'd have to be dead i mean helping  others is  probably an intrinsic trait of being us  right um and so for me to be able to  help someone  and hundreds and thousands of people  everywhere just because i spend five  minutes  answering a question the payoff seems to  be a hundred percent worth it and that's  the drive  to these youtubes um is just helping  other boaters fulfill their dreams  really  and i guess this is probably a sort of  mixture of people some people that will  take the information and will go and act  on it and do it themselves  others will kind of show it to their  local technical person or their you know  because again it makes you globally as a  globally available as a company but then  there's the other people that kind of go  thank you for the information but can  you do it for me because i'm a bit a bit  frightened to do it myself and they  obviously  100 yeah so really really interesting  so in the in the session this first  session i really want to  again i watch all the rcpys and against  a lot of the seminars and i'm on a lot  of the forums as well  and really you know i know a lot of your  speciality and expertise and what the  questions you get is around  batteries charging cabling and fusing so  i thought that would be a really kind of  great place to site you know the power  source charging the power source and  then wiring the power source so  let's start off with batteries it's  always an interesting  um subject around  these these great  big lumps of lead and  and plastic  that we we stick on our boats that power  all the services you know fridge  lighting navigation and engines and such  like  and there seems to be kind of two main  types if you're going to break it down  from a high level you've got the kind of  lead acid  which are essentially are the old truck  batteries which have  kind of evolved a little bit but are  still essentially truck batteries  and then there's these new fangled  whizzy  lithiums that everyone's kind of talking  about can you can you talk us through  you know why would someone choose lead  acid why would someone choose lithium  and the kind of benefits and  and obviously the disadvantages of both  yeah the the the reality is there's no  such thing as one-size-fits-all  we know this in clothing we know this in  our homes we know this in our cars  we know this in a lot of things and i  think in the marine world  there it's so hard and it's so  overwhelming that a lot of us think that  if someone else does it i should do it  because i don't really don't know what i  want and so therefore if they're talking  about it i need it  and my first step is always to say hey  listen you know  this is not you know you're gonna have  to find something for you  and that for you is multiple things  right it might be  you know what side but what kind of boat  do you have what do you do with your  boat what kind  what kind of energy do you need i mean  are you going are you a day tripper  and you're going for four hours out and  coming back do you need a lithium  battery if you're a powerboarder doing  that  you know um and so the question as as an  owner and as a boater is  figure out what our requirements are and  then basically apply solution  this is where my engineer side of me  comes in where i'm going  you know let's tailor a solution to your  problem  not what repeat what the other neighbor  or fellow border did  because you might have the same boat you  might be in the same town  it might be the same year but you're  going to use your boat completely  differently than your neighbor and  therefore the electrical system  maybe one of them comes out of the  factory perfect and for the other boater  same boat  it could be brothers and the other  boater is doing something different  they're staying overnight they're going  out for a week  so that's the first thing to realize is  that you can't really  copy what your neighbor does and you  found the secret sauce  power usage and your kind of usage of  yeah yeah  and so i mean the big two fields that  you're talking about are lead acid  batteries  and they come in multiple sort of  flavors flooded   absorb glass mat agm gel  um fireflies which is sort of a carbon  foam agm and there's even more than that  and that's on one side of the sort of  the spectrum and the other side is  lithium batteries and so you've got  these two camps  um the lead acid batteries like you say  have been around either you'll be  curious  we've been using them forever um and  when you're doing those sort of projects  you know  um you what they offer is simplicity at  the end of the day there are batteries  right and you compare that to lithium  lithium  is not just a battery yes it provides  energy but there is an electronic  component to that battery  and i tell people all the time you know  bms is a computer  i mean that's what it is it's a it's  it's not the little pocket calculators  that we had from the 19 you know  1990s this is a real full-blown computer  um the people that designed these bms's  are electrical engineers   they're actually programming you know  they're they're full on  intense like this is not a joke right  because there's a certain level of  automation in what the bms has to do to  make the looking battery safe so  you know if you compare one to one you  go one is vanilla you know lead acid  battery the other one has a computer  right now you got to ask ourselves and i  tell this all the time  why would anyone want a computer when  they can have something that's not a  computer  right you there's got to be a trade-off  because one is  like basically non-technical i mean  batteries exist everywhere  you can make a battery out of you know  like people do these little experiments  it's not complicated  11 lemon and a cup bit of coffee yeah  yeah  exactly right so simple versus lithium  so why would you go with something that  has a computer where you can buy  something that doesn't have a computer  and i think the reason why people would  consider lithium would be   the big reasons are  saving space  so you get a lot more energy density  usable amp hours out of a lithium  battery than you do flooded so anybody  who has very big space constraints  and that happens um where they can't  simply put more batteries like  they cannot do it so lithium for sure  winner there   next one for lithium a big win is  also  weight you know that less volume also  translates to less weight   racers are going to care about that  um there's going to be some power  boaters that are going to care about  that too that you know  want a really light boat  but want a  lot of energy  all right all good so far you know these  are all wins right and everybody will  like  less weight less space okay perfect  um so those two are big selling features  the other one too that lithium that's a  big advantage  of course is the number of cycles  meaning  cycles is how does it how often can you  take a battery from a hundred percent  down and there's a lot of confusion  around that isn't there because  yeah there is i think that's just like   i charged it up you know that's not a  cycle is it you know you go out and  and use a quarter of the battery or  whatever and then you go and charge it  back up again that's not a full cycle  it's from 100  down to yeah every cycle is way  differently  right it's like our own lives you know  every day is not the same some days we  work a lot harder and it's a lot harder  on our system than other days  not every day in our lives is a hard day  or an easy day  but every day is a day every cycle is a  cycle   some site but they're weighted  differently right so you can obviously  like if we go back to flooded lead acid  battery for example and we take a deep  cycle battery as an example a deep cycle  battery can be discharged to 50 percent  right so you take it from 100 and you  bring down to 50.  you can do that 300 times let's say on a  standard battery for that answer better  but if you take that same battery and  you bring it down to zero  you can only do it 50 times so you can  see that  wait a second i'm trading off the deeper  i go on my cycle  the less cycles i have and the opposite  of bringing it from 100 to zero is bring  it from 100 to 99  and then you'll get like 15 000 so  psych and that's what happens in our  cars our vehicles  basically offer us five six seven years  of battery starting because we go from  100  all the way just to 99 92 95 and then  bang again  so the battery can do 10 15 000 cycles  what's interesting with  the lithium is it gives you let's say  something ridiculous like 5 000  cycles  you know all the way down to  20 of capacity  now that sounds great but we've got to  ask ourselves too  and that's a good one is am i going to  be using my boat for 5 000 nights in the  foreseeable future  am i going to have my boat for 5 000  nights over the next 20 years  um and what's the cycle to me and  sometimes that cycle might be a two-day  cycle right you might start the battery  on you know a saturday morning and  you're  still bringing it down and you're  bringing it down on sunday night so  that's now  two days was a cycle depending on how  you size the battery bank  so sometimes we have to be careful  between these comparisons and saying 5  000 cycles all these different things  most of us unless you're going offshore  cruising and you are living on your boat  will have a hard time finding the return  on investment  to take advantage of those number of  cycles most of us don't vote every day  not every day is a cycle so some of us  only build 30 days a year 60 days a year  okay so now you're buying a battery that  has 5000 cycles you use it 50 days a  year  still that's your lifetime right  and then that's a lifetime so this whole  promise of  you know 100 years of battery in a  hundred years i mean  you know you're paying today dollar for  something that is going to give you a  return for 100 years  nobody is going to be cherishing that  lithium in 20 years  20 years something so revolutionary  that is going to be garbage like it 20  years from now is going to be  mind blowing on the battery world so you  gotta  the advantage of those cycles for  lithium the important thing is  quantifying and thinking am i going to  take advantage of that because that's  used a lot on the internet as an  advantage  but it's irrelevant if you're going to  make use of it so  that was the third thing right we talked  about the first space volume  and then cycles the other one too that's  really good about lithium  is their ability to sustain a voltage as  they're discharging  meaning they're not like a battery a  lead acid batteries a lot like us  people you know you start your day you  might be a little bit more energized  and if you've worked at six years  you know you're gonna be tired you're  not gonna have that same pump and the  lead acid battery as it's depleted  the voltage drops and as our voltage  drops then  the loads as they get lower and lower  some of the  loads are more susceptible to voltage  being low and they start becoming  intermittent a prime example that is a  refrigerator  right you know refrigerators aren't  going to work you know when the battery  voltage is 11 volts because the fridge  doesn't sense 11 volts it's 11 at the  battery by the time you get to the  fridge it might be 10 2  10 3 and the fridge is going to come out  so if your loads are   pretty big like some people are  running air conditioning you know stuff  like that off lithium  that's a great thing it it it the  battery doesn't sag  it just this miracle thing it will sag  at the end  but for a long period of time it's going  to be relevant that's another big win  for lithium  um the other big win for lithium on  paper is their charge acceptance rate  and that's called car   so now a lot of people will flaunt this  sort of concept oh you know it's got  three c means i can recharge my battery  at three times capacity  and they're right three times capacity  but okay so let's try it and i gave this  analogy to someone else it's like  bragging that your bank account can take  any deposit  you know  my bank account can take you  can deposit a million dollars if you  want i'm like it's not going to happen  and nobody's going to be able to  recharge a battery at 3c 3c  is imagine two golf cart batteries or an  8d battery or whatever it is like  a group 30 even two golf carts we're  talking about  you know in 12 volts we're talking about  220 240 amps  hours do three times of that as capacity  that's a 660 amp alternator  charger you can't you can't go  to your channel and say hey listen um  yeah i'm not looking so much for  a water hose to recharge my battery i'm  looking for  literally an ocean like it's  there's no such thing the biggest the  biggest alternatives we're seeing are  you know maybe about 300 amps  that's pretty much at 12 that's pretty  much the threshold  chargers are maxing out at maybe 150  amps  at 12 volts so then you're saying oh i'm  going to put in how many alternators  well engines can't have  limitless alternatives so you'll never  this is where  i get a little scared and i had another  conversation with another voter on a  podcast about this and i was saying  when you start bragging about features  that really don't have any benefit  then that's where you know that the  conversation is not  accurate it's not truthful boasting  about  benefits  that aren't really going to mean  anything other than bragging  that's where you're comparing data  sheets in the boarding world that's  irrelevant  yeah so to recap lithium space volume   depth of discharge cycles the ability  to take a high rate of charge  all those things are like really and  that non-voltage sagging  but then why does not everybody have  that there are some drawbacks but the  drawbacks aren't that big you just can't  take advantage of them the challenge is  is that doing lithium um is  not straightforward yeah it is not it is  not straightforward  and most people unfortunately as a  boater i tell people all the time  there's nothing wrong with do it  yourself  but the first part of the do before you  even do you have to educate  and most of us like to do more than  educate  you know that sense of let's do it let's  just get it done and that's where you  can get a lot of troubles because  they're  comparing their experiences with  batteries and they're going oh well it's  just  it's called a battery then therefore you  know it's just going to be drop in  drop in replacement and um  it isn't it really isn't  it's it  it's intense um it's not easy  the challenge is the manufacturers of  those batteries um  some of them are offering bms's that  control  only one positive post what that means  is all  it's like a typical battery it looks  like a battery there's only two posts  there's a positive and a negative you're  like oh great  perfect but what they don't realize is  at one point if you drop in a lithium  battery and this happened to a boulder  this summer  drop in battery look drop in battery at  lithium  um didn't change the alternator  the  long journey up on the coast eventually  the battery was being overcharged by an  alternator  there's no communication at this point  the bms this is a simple bms right that  bms is not talking to anybody  it's like my job is to keep this battery  safe no problem great  but what happened is the battery was  getting overcharged the lithium said  okay  you know what i can't take it anymore  you're charging me i'm full  so what it did it's not communicating  with anyone it's just doing what it  needs to do it's sort of it's a computer  it's going i'm shutting down  right until you start putting a load and  then the owner lost the battery bank  the battery bank was gone it was zero  volts and then now  not everything shuts down so this is  where  i'm a big fan not of the necessarily  budget batteries because to me  budget and water and not having it  reliable or predictable is a problem  my philosophy is when we go voting we  want to have our lives  better than on land and simpler and less  stressful  than our day life and so what i  recommend if we do lithium is i say okay  go lithium but go big  meaning buy a battery that has the  ability to have  both a charging post right yep so it's  called  a bus charging one and a discharge and  then have the ability to say hey listen  i'm not taking any more charging  i'm stopping it's done but the loads  will keep going  right so there's inputs and outputs and  that's  where when we do those lithium battery  banks that's what we're doing we're  definitely putting battery banks that  have these dual  dual input output so that the bms can  control one and not the other  and that makes it a lot more reliable  but then that gets more involved  and then you have to think about two you  know like these alternatives alternators  have a hard life you know they're in an  engine room  it's not warm it's hot you know  and they're working hard right neal and  those alternators when they were  charging a lithium  the lithium battery is so hungry so  thirsty for power that you're basically  running your alternator at max output  pretty much for the duration the battery  will not it's going to charge all the  way to 100  or near so the alternators end up  burning out and then that's where then  you start putting these high  output but like heavy duty duty  alternators and then you put external  regulators to recharge the lithium  so if you hear all these words then  you're going whoa  this is not a battery anymore like  you're telling the system an ecosystem  yeah  yeah and it is and that's where the  comparison  is a little bit misleading because you  can't really replace  one to one when you go lithium you have  to really think about the system  you have to really imagine and how do  you  start the engine are you going to charge  the engine you know now if your  alternator is recharging your lithium  what's recharging your  engine battery right your engine battery  is probably going to be flooded or agm  how do you recharge different battery  chemistries it gets the whole new level  now this is the world i cherish and love  it's complicated right it's hard um  you know a lot of decisions pros and  cons but if you're  a typical voter and you're not wanting  to geek out too far that's where lithium  becomes  a little bit more questionable yeah and  the other factor of course and people  forget this you know  this is not monopoly money right this is  real dollars  and not everyone needs to drive a  lamborghini or a bentley  or whatever we want mclaren to go and  enjoy boating  you know for me as a boater i remind  people once you're on the water it  doesn't matter if you're on a  150 meter yacht or you're on a literally  five meter yacht you have the same view  it's the same experience  people on bigger boats don't have a  better time than people on small boats  and so whatever barriers we make to  ourselves to bring the bar  higher and higher and make it more  expensive to go boating  the less of us are out there on the  water enjoying that splendor that beauty  that  relaxation so i tell people it's not  that lithium is for everyone there is  absolutely a need for lithium and  lithium solves a lot of great problems  but don't be fooled you don't need  lithium  everyone doesn't need lithium and you  don't want to be in that situation  because then it would remove people from  boating  and as we know boating is not something  we want to stop others from enjoying  it's a  it's a very it's an incredibly  fulfilling  sort of hobby or lifestyle so that's my  take between the flooded lead acid  and the lithium is that it's not for  everyone  it doesn't need to be not everyone needs  to drive a lamborghini  there's no some people do but not  everyone yeah and i guess  again i am guilty i've done a lot of  research so i'm currently in the process  of building a lithium  system for our boat um you know we go  away and stay away for a week on the  time  and we want to start using the water  heater the immersion heater through the  the inverter  um so our power draw is gonna gonna go  up because we'll have showers in the  morning and stuff if we're away for a  week  um so you know our lead acids just  couldn't couldn't take the draw so  but yeah it's absolutely right you know  we've gone from having just standard  alternators  charging you know a start battery and a  house bank  but now we're looking at okay we need  either to go the dc dc  route to charge the lithium off of that  and you  if you do that you're not going to get a  lot of amps in there or you go direct to  the alternator and you've got to start  looking at you know either  you know bauma or a wake speed or you  know one of those kind of  more advanced um voltage register that  start you know reducing the field  current as  the the capacity of the battery kind of  goes up but as you say then the  complexity and i do love geeking out and  all this kind of stuff so it's gonna  for me i like that and enjoy that but as  you say i think for a lot of boaters  there there could be you know some  confusion around the fact that there are  these  as you say drop in lithium batteries  but then you are going to cook your  alternator or you know you are going to  have these these single um charge  discharge  and then you will lose kind of  everything because it will cut off or  i mean worst cases you you cut the power  to the alternator and you lose your  alternator you know if you  yeah if you cut your alternator then you  know you need either an alternate  protection device or something  to just reduce the field current rather  than just completely cutting it because  you'll you'll kill an alternator which  is  very bad so it it brings a good point  right the the question is you know  there's a certain segment of us and i  have to always divide myself in parts  there's a person inside of me that's a  geek loves all this stuff  um it's challenging it's complicated  it's sophisticated it's creative to do  it you know it's a puzzle  all those things  there's the  engineering me the geek in me that wants  all of that  but then i also have to be realistic  because i see pain right  i see disappointment you know we we do  about a thousand votes a year so  i see the disappointment on the other  side all this stuff is what i would call  sales it's marketing it's it's all  promises but then we have to be  considerate of the implications of those  things  and when a boat is unreliable and the  boat um  you know has problems the battery bank  the bms is acting up  the alternator burns out you know a lot  of us don't have  you know 52 weeks of vacation a year not  all of us  are you know we're working for a living  and our time off  is extremely precious and i tell people  i'm like  remember you if you're going to take on  complexity it has to be for a trade-off  and there is a reason to do it but i  invite voters i'm like  listen there's also something to be said  if you really don't need the battery  then why go through all this complexity  to have something because when it fails  then at this point you're not going to  be seeing a mechanic like you're  you're now an early adopter now you're  going to be in a marina you're going to  talk to an electrician  you're going to be talking you're going  to be talking to another boater and that  voter  they can't help you now this is not a  battery anymore now it's getting more  complicated  and that's where i remember myself and i  see the pain in people when they lose  their vacation when their vacation  that they've worked all year for that  they've i mean they  bought the boat years ago but they're  paying them orange they're you know  they're doing all the things that we're  doing  in anticipation and if something stops  you from fulfilling that dream or living  that experience with your family your  loved ones  your friends whatever it is or by  yourself it can be  pretty devastating and that's where i go  okay  pros and cons is it is the complexity  a requirement to get the benefits like  you were saying for your vote where i  need to run these  large ac appliances that are coming off  the inverter whatever it is  but make a decision go yes i am making a  conscious decision  and i'm willing and if you're like  yourself technical then maybe you're  going to be the one  solving it where it gets even harder is  the people that are doing it  but aren't really aware of their  limitations  and then when it fails troubleshooting  is the highest order and the hardest  thing to do  doing building is easy that's if you  think that's hard  you're in a world of hurt  troubleshooting when it doesn't work is  the hardest  so it's one thing as voters to do things  and do when things go well  but when they go south then what and  that's the challenge too  is that these voters then are on their  own they're  you know how are they going to  troubleshoot this problem you know their  wife their son their daughters or  girlfriend  could be anyone they're like so now what  what are we gonna do how do we get out  of here what happens  and you're like  you're at a whole new  level  of game and so um  i'm i own we do lithium we absolutely do  it  but we do it and i i vet it i'm like  let's see if lithium is right  for you yeah because and also the last  thing is money i mean you're going to  drop some  serious point not in not in necessarily  buying the battery   but you're gonna draw some serious  coin and doing everything around it yep  yep as i as i well know by the  the  cost of my belmar alternators i never  had to purchase so  yeah very good  one thing on on  lithium's though there that does seem i  mean clearly there's been a lot of stuff  in the press around  around lithium as a technology there was  the whole kind of samsung thing a while  back  and these kind of hoverboards all the  kids were buying that kind of started  catching fire and stuff like that  there is this kind of misconception that  if you put lithium on your boat then  your boat is going to be this  huge fire risk and suddenly you know  they're going to miraculously  self-destruct  at any point is that true of like the  the kind of  the the chemistry that they're using for  lithium on boat or is that a different  kind of lithium technology that they're  using in kind of mobile phones and these  hover pools yeah i  i don't know yeah so that world i don't  know i know that they have the same  thing on the   boeing the dreamliner yeah i i that i  can't tell you because it's not my world  but when we when we think about lithium  you're right the bms is everything right  the the  that's what the job of the bms is  therefore is to protect the battery from  being in this sort of self-destruct  potentially self-destructive state  so what i recommend to people is you  have all these people that are getting  in the foray  of getting into lithium they're doing  this in no-name companies  um companies that basically if they go  down under they're just gonna start  they're just gonna change the you know  the name on the front   they've got no brand name recognition  there's nothing to lose for them they  don't  have a branding they're selling on low  price alone  and so what i tell people i'm like okay  and i was talking to a lagoon owner  recently i said to him i said  you know he was going to cheap out and  buy the lowest cost lithium batteries  out there and i said listen  you just bought a boat for over a  million dollars these batteries are  under your bed  you're going to sleep literally on top  of these batteries  i said buy a battery from a manufacturer  that has something to lose they care  and i've seen let's say for example the  big companies like victron master vote  lithionics  um they're actually  that's it like they they if they look if  they go down  and people sue them they're gonna lose a  lot more than just selling lithium  batteries  and so what i tell people is like i make  sure they have a skin in the game  right make sure that they really care  about that bms that they're not willing  not to take on risks  and that they're not going to release a  product or a software version  that isn't a hundred percent embedded  because it's a risk or war thing  right you you know being sued could take  down a company right and a bad name  would take their whole product line out  so make sure that they're not cutting  corn and yes it's not as attractive  as some of maybe the budget battery  choices but the flip side is  you know very well that they're very  much incented  to not have any problems and so it all  depends as a boat owner is what are  risk tolerance some people i tell people  some people ride a  motorcycle without a helmet to them  that's not risk behavior that's  freedom you know you know and so all of  us as voters have different  risk tolerance um i'm definitely as an  engineer more on the spectrum of this is  a recreational boat   there's no reason to put your life or  the life of someone else in jeopardy  on a recreational boat if you can afford  it then you should afford to pay a  little bit maybe  a premium i say to not have to worry  um we haven't heard of fires to me the  the  the i mean you hear about them but not i  haven't seen them locally   you hear about them for me it's more  the reliability i wouldn't be so much  worried about  the fact that they're going to catch on  fire that often i mean i haven't seen it  personally  um but it would be that the system  you're going to have  component failures around it like you  talked about mail like the alternator  like all these other things  that might be stopping you from voting  um so  yeah i think there's a little bit of  fear monitoring there but the flip side  is  it's healthy because without that you  get people that are just gonna jump ship  and then and then when people don't have  a good voting experience  and it's your one week holiday or your  only two week holiday  most people might give up voting they  might go i'm out  you know this is this is so much easier  to rent an airbnb or just go to  some islands some you know just just buy  your experience  but not be responsible to fulfill it  and so that's where i have a little bit  of hesitation with too easy  yeah i guess i guess um you know one of  the things i've kind of learned through  what the research that i kind of did  when we looked at it is you know  lithium is kind of a big umbrella and  there are lots of different chemistries  you've got lithium polymer lithium ion  lithium phosphate lifting cobalt and  titanate  i think so i mean i i used to fly you  know radio controlled  you know planes and helicopters and  that's kind of lithium polymer and they  are hugely hugely powerful but they will  blow up at a moment's notice and they  will you know like a firework it's like  a firecracker when those things go  but as far as i'm aware the the most of  the kind of marine lithium the victrons  and the the  the main ones are lithium ion phosphate  which is  kind of generally seen as being quite  inert when it comes to  um you know that kind of explosive kind  of tendencies that you've seen  from you know this kind of umbrella of  lithium that people kind of  get a bit kind of worried about when you  say lithium batteries it's all  boeing samsung hoverboards i think  generally there is the the fact that the  the chemistry that most  companies are using is is reasonably  safe and   say quite inert when it comes to um you  know discharging and charging  yeah it's the absolutely the only ones  we've used are the lithium iron  phosphate batteries  yeah one last thing i wanted to cover  off with you which i know  is  i say just watching some of your  content is a pet peeve of yours around  wiring  and and you always talk about the  difference between  is it welding  cable i think you call it and  you know people that go i just put  welding cable on there versus kind of  tin or marine wire i guess it comes back  to you know some of the points you'd be  making about you know  you want to you know don't cheap out and  you know the boat you want to be able to  use it but  just kind of talk us through kind of  wiring a little bit and you know again  why  why should we use proper marine core  cable versus you know  welding cable um and and fusing because  again i know  that's another  point that you see a  lot you know just talk us through that a  little bit and give us some kind of best  practices around that  yeah so as as voters you know we're  always   both budget and time constrained we  know that that's in our whole life it's  not just  you know at home in our business in our  lives for everything  and so with this sort of crunch of time  we want to have do  more a lot of people end up just doing  um and doing what's available so it's  going to be either  choosing the wrong size cable or  choosing the cable of all the same color  i i can't tell you how many builds i've  gone where all everything is all black  you know and it works they're absolutely  right it absolutely works you can  absolutely  the color of the wire does not affect   the conductivity of it  that being said um troubleshooting   removing a piece of equipment and then  having two black wires and you're like  which one do i reconnect to the new  piece of equipment that removed  now everything becomes contacts right  it's sort of like everybody could drive  on the left side or the right side of  the road and you in england  do it differently than we do in north  america but it's about consistency  right it's about being predictable  because if we both use both sides of the  road  there would be no road  you just  simply would  you know we get to stalemate and so  color is important  and following the code is important  because a lot of people i hear them they  say oh well i know which one it is i'm  like oh so you know the context  you have to know that this cable was on  the left this cable was on the right  when you remove an equipment or you  troubleshoot now you've got to keep the  cables left and right  and i'm like how great but to them it's  like oh well i just need to buy one reel  you know instead of buying a reel and  cable of red or  and let's say yellow or red red and  black i'm just going to buy one  all red gonna save on the cable less  scrap  it's going to be really hard to maintain  so that's one thing is color coding is  absolutely essential  if you want a world of hurt in a world  of pain  you don't do it   but i strongly suggest that people  follow the code  there's a really good reason for that it  makes it much easier in the future  the next is the type of wiring um  people buy these welding cables and  think that you know they're getting a  deal well  no the manufacturers are not making  higher margin on welding cable or less  and more on marine they're they're just  different types of cabling  and we've got to remember on a boat and  i've seen this welding cables  a welder doesn't sort of buy a cable  and say hey babes you know i bought this  cable it's going to last me 50 years pop  had it now it's my turn  i had to get down yeah it's gonna be a  family legacy you know it's a big  investment  huge investment this cable is a wear and  tear item  it's gonna last a year two years i don't  know they're just gonna check it away  it's  it's it's it's meaningless you know it's  just like whatever it's like a coffee  cup you know just buy another one  but on a boat once you put a wire on a  boat the chance of you removing that  wire and doing a wire refresh on a boat  is zero  it's never gonna happen nobody ever does  wire refresh if you did that we'd all i  mean we could nobody could afford voting  no one it means every wire of the boat  so i've seen welding cable that  literally over time  it's almost it looks like an orange like  a tangerine like  it literally it's not only i'm not  talking about cracking i'm talking like  it peeled off wow it literally is now  sort of the the the jacket is  become brittle because it's been there  for 15 20  20 years and then that brings and now  you're seeing i had a boat a work boat  where luckily they would have i mean the  boat would be gone if it hit on the  positive but it was the negative the  hall was actually carrying  part of the negative current on an  aluminum boat because the jacket had  become brittle over time  and now they had crazy corrosion  problems on that boat because  one of the cables was actually you know  going  onto the hull so that's one reason why  you wouldn't do welding people the other  reason why you wouldn't do welding cable  is that that jacket actually if it  becomes ever  in contact with oil or fuel will  actually melt off  so now you have a jacket it's like going  on the rain  and then over time that jacket is  literally going to literally disappear  off your back you're like oh well yeah i  should have  so i've seen welding cable where there  was  a fuel drip landing you know fuel  filters are above it   where the jacket of the welding cable  was gone  the only reason it didn't short is that  it was properly affixed  every six inches and because of the  stiffness of welding cable  the two cables were literally an inch  away a couple centimeters away from one  another  and the jacket was gone on both when  they touch if there's no fuse  it's basically game over so that's  another reason   the other reason is that corrosion  you know it's a boat is not a  super again  healthy environment for  electrical conductivity  and so all the strands are untined also  the other big challenge is the stiffness  of the wire boats vibrate  so you've got all these cons right and  you're going  if you're aware of all these cons and  you do a welding cable  good on you there's no harm you're  making an informed decision   you and that's a choice you're like i  hear all this but i need to buy the  lowest cost cable  you know that to me is important and  there's a reason for that  my take on it is a little bit different  and i say okay these are all negatives  what is the time to put a cable in the  boat do i ever want to do it again  do i want to make it two steps forward  and one step back  you know and that's where i go no it's  not worth it not worth it at all we've  got to put good stuff so that  there's so much things that break on a  boat that you don't want to have to have  shorter life cycles go  i'm gonna have to do that faster and  that's why i'm a big on  you know making sure the connections are  properly crimped putting heat shrink  right all these things matter  because you want to make sure that your  boat is reliable  so that's my take between a welding  cable and marine  thin cable the strands are much smaller  they're much more flexible  honestly i i would personally never put  a welding kit even if i was told to  there's no way  it but some people do some people do  but i just you know it's a choice but i  wouldn't do that  never and and  and fusing i know they  say it's a it's a big thing for you as  well so  here's again here's one for you then so   you talk about if  again i've watched somebody you talk  about fusing the cable not necessarily  using the device but fusing the cable  does the fuse go next to the device or  does the fuse go next to the battery  where should  people be putting the fuses so again  let's say we've got an alternator do you  put it near the alternator do you put it  in the battery if we've got a  searchlight do we put it near the search  side do we put it in the battery  which ends i'm playing the devil's  advocate here but you know where where  would  where would you put the fuse yeah well  the  the fuse if there's gonna be only one  fuse it has to be at the start of the  circuit  um and  it has to so you think about  um and it's funny this is such a  confusing topic   it's so confusing and honestly if  you're listening to this and you're  confused welcome to the club  but here here's here's what we need to  think about um  when we think about our homes   buildings everything  it's it's absolutely either criminal or   negligent  to and you couldn't do  it i mean you would lose  everything in north america you i mean  you were talking done done  you can never ever ever ever ever  energize a circuit without a circuit  breaker  anywhere like that's literally having  tnt and having you know rags full of oil  and pain in a corner  or what happened and just waiting for an  accident to happen it's  not a single trades person whatever  ever it's it's not inconceivable it  would never  happen right but what happens on boats  is it's interesting  that whole philosophy everything that  we've learned about  avoiding electrical fires on  land for some reasons get lost as soon  as we go on the water  and it's sort of like oh that's good for  land  oh and by the way land means also your  car every circuit on your car is fused  everything is fused right and the fuse  block is not  near the tail light near where is the  fuse block it's at the start of the  circuit it's one location  everything fans out so the challenges  what happens is people get confused  and they think oh i have a fuse or  i have a fuse on the battery or i have a  fuse on the panel  but what they're not realizing is not  all fuses protect all wires  fuses are sized for both an appliance  and the maximum amperage that a cable  can handle  and if you don't if you take a fuse and  you rate a fuse for example for 100 amps  and the cable is only rated for 30  and the appliance is only rated for 50.  your cables in a fuse  it's not a few it's better than the wire  that's right  and what as a boat owner i'm like  why would you now i can imagine myself  as a  sometimes imagine myself as a not  commercial but a like i don't know  a fisherman in a small village and i'm  trying to put food on my table and i am  in a sort of sustenance  sort of mode and i'm like life is hard  yeah maybe they can't afford to you know  they're just getting out there they're  going to try to make a living you know  that's different  they do what they can with what they  have but for the rest of us are  recreational voters  why would you and this is what i tell  people i heart like  when you invite someone on your boat  you're inviting them into your risk  tolerance  they don't know that normal human beings  are assuming  that everything around us is relatively  safe you know you don't sit on a couch  and it's  super combustible there's a reason why  the materials that build the couch  they learn that right they don't want  this thing to have a cigarette lineup  flashes up in a bang so why would we  tolerate a lower risk  or higher risk  on a boat  and then the problem is that the people  that are coming on that boat  either your guest or the next owner  don't realize that risk tolerance and  that's why it's not up  to everyone to make that decision you  can't build your car  based to your risk tolerance i don't  need seat belts oh yeah  you do handbrake i don't do hambrick  tail lights  headlights you don't need that signaling  don't worry about that and then the next  owner would buy the car  assume that these things are there not  knowing that they're there and then  that's where it gets really hard their  risk tolerance is different  and so for me is like established  baseline let's not take  undue risk unnecessary risk a fuse is  not a five thousand dollar line item  right and so you fuse all the circuits  and you fuse them always of the source  of power  right what's confusing is this  you get you buy a vhf radio and the vhf  radio has a fuse connected  and you're like oh it has a fuse so then  they're like oh but the cable's not long  enough to go the battery  so then they run a long cable all the  way to the battery  and they're like oh my circuit is fused  well no the circuit's not fused  the circuit from the moment the fuse  starts to the radio but everything from  the battery up to there is infused and  i've got videos on youtube that show  that  and that that fuse will never blow if  the short is in between the battery and  the views  so if ever the wire shafe  you know  i don't know that you're putting two  pieces of structure together and you  squish them and they  connect screw whatever it is  now you're in a world of hurt so the  fuse has to be the power source  and generally on a boat for dc  that is basically it starts at the  battery and every time you change cable  size and you go from a larger cable to  smarter cable then you have to bring you  few sizes because you fuse  for a wire and an appliance and the vhf  radio might be powered from the 15 amp  breaker  let's say on the dc panel but the  manufacturer of the radio is going to  say i want a 5 amp or 7 amp or whatever  it is 8  or 10 amp and i want a 10 amp fuse for  the appliance  so you'll literally have sometimes a  circuit breaker  for the wire at the start of the circuit  from the panel and then  a smaller fuse that is extremely  tailored  exactly with what the manufacturer wants  for the radio  so you'll have a fuse for the appliance  and if you and a circuit breaker  or a fuse  for the the wires  and that's the approach and it's  important to remember that a lot of  people  talk about this code as this sort of  ideal  where it's this thing oh utopian vision  yeah it's like it's like either our  health or eating habits oh yeah well you  shouldn't have that but that's  that's what they say but you you know  you can compromise no the code is  and i i don't understand i remember even  getting the voting issues like well the  code is just for those naysayers  then i realize is these people are  propagating these  lines the code is not an ideal  it's the foundation it's the bare  minimum  and yet you've got these voters that are  going oh no no no don't worry about that  what they're telling you is they're  saying i don't worry about anything  which  most likely in a lot of cases means i'm  not really thinking about it   because i'm not if you don't think  about something you're not going to  worry about it  um and this whatever happens it happens  but again what are the consequences of a  boat fire  versus a house fire you know um we know  what fires can do  when you don't have accidents that  happen in england if you're on the  ground and there's a fire you can run  through the window come on the other  side  sure if you're on the ground floor but  how many doors  and windows that you can leave on a boat  are there  and when there's a fire on a boat is  this sort of like a marshmallow fire a  little camp and you have a little bit of  smoke and you're like oh  no this is complete whiteout we're  talking you couldn't see your hand  in front of your face like it is  it's not flock it's it's your loot you  first can't breathe  can't see and then you have to get out  of your boat  and if the fire is near the companion  way near the door  so how are you going to go out  and then once you're out of the boat  where are you going you know are you at  the dock or are you in an anchorage  is your dinghy down well then you jump  in the water okay you jump in the water  what's the water like is it cold is it  warm  are you far from shore you know now your  boat's down can you swim to shore is  there another boat  all these things it's sort of the bar  needs to be higher  on the water because of all the things i  talked about and yet  it's the opposite it's crazy and that's  my pepe it's like  why settle take on more risk in an  environment  where it's already riskier to begin with  and that's why  you know i'm a big harper on everything  has to be fused like  why would you not do that and i hope  that my  explanations resonate to voters so that  they can take the time to go on their  boat and see  was my previous owner you know a high  risk taker  because maybe i'm not and what risks  they take on my boat that now i own  that i now bought from them and am i  willing to have  their risk tolerance and neil i say this  all the time to boat owners i say when  you buy a boat you're not buying a boat  you're buying a previous owner's  sort of level of care your level of  everything  it's not the boat that you buy because  you can buy a boat from a manufacturer  that's different  but once it's left that factories  by multiple owners you're buying that  how much have they been loved taken care  of what was their risk tolerance  do you align in terms of your  prioritization for maintenance  some people never touch something until  it breaks that's their philosophy  if they break don't touch them well we  know on boats  yes that could be an adage some other of  us go okay well there's maintenance  cycles you know you've got to change  your pencil zinc on your heat exchanger  you don't wait for  your heat exchanger to sort of corrode  and have  all you basically your coolant mixing  with your hot water  you know from the ocean  you're not  gonna wait for that so  there's a lot of preventative things  that we can do and these owners are  some of them don't care it's not that  they can't afford it they just  don't can't be bothered so fusing is one  of these things that  you want to make sure that if your  previous owner didn't care maybe you do  have it have again or you know have a  look it is fascinating to say after  watching i  literally after watching some of your  videos i started going around going yeah  where's the fuses  looking again ours is 20 year it's a 22  000  you know it's just 28 21 years old now  um and and clearly you know the  the technology back in 2000 is certainly  different to where we are in in 2021  we've updated the navigation equipment  and all that kind of stuff so again  it is it really is so fascinating to  look back and to do that preventative  maintenance now  and to look at it for a different pane  of glass to say you know  exactly as you said you know why do we  need diffusing and you know  it's like why hasn't it been put in  there why wasn't it you know  someone just go oh yeah we'll just whack  the searchlight in whack this radio in  whack this whatever in  um and just you know tap it into any  kind of 12-volt circuit they can find  and get their hands on  versus actually that's what they're  doing probably that's that's the  piggybacking on  somewhere  and and the challenge with that is and i  was saying this   i say this all the time i say you know  what we're doing there is we're  sabotaging our own dreams  you know having an unreliable is or a  boat that  you know things it's not all fires are  catastrophic but  i've seen you know owners that have had  boat fires where  you know it didn't take the whole boat  down but it takes them out of boating  yeah  you know it's over you know and now that  part of them you know some of us wanted  to vote forever  it's not something we just kind of  happen to do it's sort of like oh you  know i'm going to wear brown shoes or  black shoes i don't know i'll just try  it some of us it's something we've  really wanted to do and if your boat  or a boat does that to you and crushes  your dream like that and you get out  i you know i say to people that's sad  you know that's  really sad to have people lose their  dreams   because we're taking  stupid shortcuts for really no benefit  um  it's yeah it's unfortunate it's i don't  want to end on a  on a dreary note um it's fascinating  again we could talk about this this kind  of stuff for ages  um for people who want to learn more  about this we kind of   piqued their appetite and they want to  learn more where's the best place that  they can go and hear morgan  where can we see more content from you  where how can they get in touch with you  how can they ask you questions on on  your show where's the best  place and way to get in contact with you  guys yeah so  this whole sharing of knowledge  you  can google on  youtube   search on the bar for pacific dot  systems  we've got  courses some courses are 12 hours we've  got a bunch of 12-hour courses  virtual presentations lots  ask pys so  that's one  format is certainly looking through the  videos that we have on youtube  the other thing too is we invite people  to go to our website we're at over  probably 1100 web pages  wow we don't really sell stuff on the  website it's not at all a  website for selling it's more again  sharing of information  um so we have all the articles that  we've published in magazines we write we  used to write all these columns for  monthly magazines so they're all there  and they're  available so you can find all that sort  of  geeking out i call and you know that  before you do educate  so all that there is there on our  websites and then further than that is  then people like you were saying in the  beginning some people are going to see  all this they're going to say great  great great  but i need help um and  can you help us you know and that's  where we do that's the fastest growing  part of our business is the consultation  and design   we probably did over 400 of those  consultation design engagements last  year where we're actually  building not necessarily the electrical  but we're actually creating a plan  to build so boat builders   do-it-yourselfers   and these boat owners are everywhere  around the world   across the united states asia the middle  east  england europe spain italy whatever  any country it doesn't matter where the  votes are we're  supporting them saying okay well maybe  you want to have a conversation pros and  cons of what you want to do because  that's already hard  how do you make a choice of where you're  going to go and then it's like well how  do i actually go about executing that  so we offer those sort of consultation  and design services to boat owners  but that's really after you you know and  it's not for everyone  i'd say 99.9 of the people that are  going to read our content  are going to listen to it they're like  oh great you know i'm i'm good  i'm going to go but there is a segment  of that those boat owners are like  i'd like to have you in my corner can  you come and help me  and support me as i go through this  journey  and figure out what's right for my boat  and for my budget  and help me make sense of all my choices  and then give me a plan that i can  either  pass on to an electrician locally so  they're not just sort of doing  and i can also inspect and make sure  that they're doing it according to  a strategy and it's funny i really i  tell people all the time i'm like  have you ever seen how often is there  greatness without a plan  you know haphazard happens of course we  have examples  but most things in life you know homes  buildings anything all these were  planned  they were put on paper they were thought  about first  and then you execute and as a boat owner  i invite all of us to educate first  plan and then do and not step that them  skip that most important step of  actually planning  or thinking about what you're gonna do  before we do it  that's awesome jeff thank you ever so  much for  for getting up early and  joining us on the show  no problem being the  the expert i  definitely want to get you back  there's a whole bunch of other topics  again we've i think we've just scratched  the surface  with this session here um thank you all  for for watching and  and joining us  on the show we'd love to hear your  comments and your feedbacks you know who  would you like to get us to get on  what topics would you like us to cover  on these sessions a lot of us are in  lockdown certainly here in the uk  we can't actually go boating so this is  as close as we can get   to at least talk about the  the  hobby that we love  so again please reach out and  let us  know hit the subscribe and ring that  bell notification  head over to pacific yacht systems as  well look at some of their great content  that great video  and i'll catch you on the next one stay  safe  how was that perfect you like it awesome  hope